- JANET FIFE-YEOMANS
- THE DAILY TELEGRAPH
- DECEMBER 10, 2013 5:44AM
Hush money … the Catholic Chruch has paid $43 million to keep sex abuse secret. Source: News Limited
THE Catholic Church has admitted paying at least $43 million in hush money to victims of its paedophile priests, as the church’s barrister outraged victims yesterday by quoting from the Bible.
In some cases, victims were not even allowed to tell their husbands, wives or children about the secret settlements negotiated through the church’s controversial Towards Healing process.
The royal commission into child sex abuse was yesterday also told how a Brisbane Catholic priest, Father Frank Derriman, ran a cult-like group sexually abusing young girls and giving them all the surname Brown, borrowed from the Peanuts comic strip’s Charlie Brown.
As the church apologised for its behaviour through the commission, survivors who were abused as children in orphanages and homes, walked out of the Sydney hearing in tears when the church’s counsel, Peter Gray SC quoted from the Gospel of Mark.
“Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such of these that the kingdom of God belongs,” Mr Gray said.
Members of CLAN (Care Leavers of Australia Network) protest outside Governor Macquarie Tower / Picture: Toby Zerna Source: News Limited
He said the church, which should have been a sacred place of children, as described in the Bible, admitted it had failed them.
With cries of “Good Lord, “What an insult” and “What a joke”, about a dozen people walked out of the commission.
“It is particularly insensitive,” said Leonie Sheedy, who along with her six siblings grew up in 26 orphanages.
“We suffered abuse and neglect as children and we really didn’t need to hear that Bible quote.”
The Catholic Church has come under the spotlight of the royal commission into instutionalised responses to child sex abuse as it looks at how the Towards Healing process worked and the role played by the church’s own Catholic Church Insurance.
It is the first time the church has been forced to reveal the extent of compensation paid to victims, although it does not include out-of-court settlements or other payments made outside the Towards Healing process.
Trish Charter and Yvette Parr who grew up in Catholic children’s homes / Picture: Toby ZernaSource: News Limited
Counsel assisting the commission, Gail Furness SC, said that between January 1996 and September 2013, $43 million had been paid by all church authorities with the Christian Brothers the most notorious.
The second largest number of complaints were made against the Marist Brothers and then the De La Salle Brothers.
In that time, 2215 victims had approached the Towards Healing process and 1700 people went ahead with it, although not all were pursued or substantiated.
The most complaints, 43 per cent, were made against religious brothers, 21 per cent against diocesan priests and 14 per cent against religious priests. Most of the abuse happened between 1950 to 1980 in orphanages and schools.
Ms Furness said that the highest compensation was $850,000 paid to the victim of a Sydney diocese priest.
Leonie Sheedy, Trish Charter and Yvette Parr / Picture: Toby Zerna Source: News Limited
Towards Healing, set up in 1996 to act as a way for people to tell their stories, receive pastoral care, an apology and reparation but in some cases, they had to sign a deed agreeing to keep the details secret and even promise not to make “disparaging remarks” about the church, the commission heard.
The Archbishop of Brisbane, the Rev Mark Coleridge, this month wrote to one victim, Joan Isaacs, about his disappointment that “confidentiality clauses were considered necessary at the time.”
Archbishop Coleridge is among the church hierarchy including the Bishop of Lismore, Rev Geoffrey Jarrett, former provincials of the Marist Brothers and the former Marist Brothers director for professional standards, Brother Alexis Turton, who will be giving evidence.
I WAS FORCED TO JOIN PRIEST’S SEX CULT Janet Fife-Yeomans
TEACHER Joan Isaacs yesterday claimed a Catholic priest ran a cult-like group sexually abusing young girls and gave them the surname Brown, as in Charlie Brown from the Peanuts comic.
Her voice wavering, Mrs Isaacs told the Royal Commission into Institutionalised Responses to Child Sex Abuse in Sydney how one member of the Brown group had Father Frank Derriman’s baby while the priest told them that, if they loved God, it was OK to have sex with him because he was God’s representative.
. Joan Isaacs speaks to the media after she gave evidence / Picture: Toby Zerna Source: News Limited
He lied that he was terminally ill and wanted to have sex before he died. During holy communion he put his fingers in her mouth.
“Frank Derriman used the Peanut comic as a platform and used the surname Brown in reference to himself, the other three children and me,” Mrs Isaacs, who was known as Junkie Brown, said.
“(He) created a cult-like group which included myself and three other children.”
The royal commission heard that, despite being convicted of indecently assaulting Mrs Isaacs and jailed, Derriman remained technically a priest and it was not until 2011 that the Archbishop of Brisbane wrote to him threatening to begin formal proceedings to have him stripped of his status.
Former priest Francis Edward Derriman.Source: News Limited
He is now married and working as a social worker in Victoria.
Her shocking evidence and bravery in speaking out drew gasps from the packed public gallery in Sydney and she left the witness box to loud applause.
The royal commission is focusing on the Catholic Church’s controversial Towards Healing process – meant to help abuse victims like Mrs Isaacs.
“There’s a time in your life when you have to stand up for what is right and that time for me is now,” Mrs Isaacs, 60, said. “I needed to be free of those chains before I died.”
She said she had felt silenced for the past 12 years after reluctantly signing a confidentiality agreement through the church’s controversial Towards Healing process for a $30,000 settlement which, after she paid legal fees, left her with enough to buy $5000 worth of Coles-Myer shares and a sewing machine.
Mrs Isaacs said she was 14 and 15 when she was abused by Derriman, who was a priest of the Archdiocese of Brisbane and chaplain of Brisbane’s Sacred Heart Sandgate in 1967 and 1968.
She said he formed the Brown family to weaken her ties with her real family and “softened” her up for sex by making her read the novel Lolita and talking about sex during confessional.
He referred to nuns “in a sexual manner” and celebrated June 25, which is the birth date of the baby who is the antichrist in the book Rosemary’s Baby, she said.
It was 30 years before she went to the police – after she became a teacher in the Archdiocese of Brisbane and found another priest, Father Ron McKeirnan, was deputy director of Catholic education. She knew he had sexually abused a number of children while a resident at Sacred Heart Presbytery.
WE BETRAYED YOUR TRUST, CHURCH ADMITS Janet Fife-Yeomans
IT was indefensible, shameful, heartbreaking and a betrayal of trust.
That is how the Catholic Church described its behaviour in dealing with the paedophiles in the church as it appeared before the royal commission for the first time yesterday.
“This is a searing and decisive moment in the history of the Catholic Church in Australia,” counsel Peter Gray SC said in an opening statement for the Truth Justice and Healing Council.
The council was formed to represent the dioceses and religious institutions within the Catholic Church before the royal commission.
Mr Gray peppered his statement with quotes from the Bible, from poets and from St Augustine.
He said that the church leaders acknowledged that some of them had put protecting the reputation of the church before the protection of children and their families and had betrayed the trust “of their own people and the expectations of the wider community”.
McBrolloks 
How people can still belong to any religious institution is a mystery to me. The atrocities committed by religion throughout the ages somehow pass by the rationale of most religious people and do not result in these people abandoning their churches which should be the only logical thing to do. Religion surely is the virus of the mind. (Richard Dawkins) Maar met ‘n geloofsprong of twee, kan mens seker hierdie gruweldade vergewe, of miskyk, of fok weet wat.
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Die meeste indien nie al die misdaad word gepleeg deur vergrype van mag, haat, vergelding, dronkenskap, bassery, grootpratery, hebsug, losbandigheid en nog so paar dinge wat mense aan mekaar dinge laat doen, dis nie die instelling wat dit doen nie, dis mense wat vals en besete is nie die instelling nie.
Maar as jy WIL jou haat versprei sal jy iets kry om te blameer en in jou geval is dit die instellings – die kerke, want jy kan seker niks anders kry om jou superieur verwaandheid te “wys” nie
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Johann, wie stig hierdie geloofsinstellings? Die mense. As jy wil voorgee dat julle god julle Christelike geloofsinstelling gestig het, moet jy dit bewys. Begin deur te bewys jou god bestaan, maar jy kan nie want hy bestaan net in jou kop. Die gruweldade wat geloof veroorsaak, word deur mense gepleeg, nes jy sê. En die mense besit en het hulle instellings gestig en moet mos dan pa staan vir hulle vergrype. Maar nee, hulle beskerm mekaar en probeer alles verdoesel. Nou as daar werklik ‘n god was wat self sy instelling gestig het , sou hy mos nie hierdie afskuwelike gedrag van sy volgelinge geduld het nie. Maar net nog ‘n indirekte bewys dat julle god nie bestaan nie.
Terloops, ek het nie superieure verwaantheid nie. Ek kruip net onder jou vel in want ek kom met rasionele argumente, en van rasionaliteit moet jy nog leer.
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In jou “perfekte wêreld” sal daar dan geen instellings wees nie? Jy kan dieselfde sê van al die ander instellings wat mense gestig het, regerings, kapitaliste, sosialiste, ko-operasies, en selfs nader by die “huis” – die Huwelik, – alles instellings wat deur die mense wat dit beheer gebruik word om dinge te verdoelsel, en die een “instelling” doen net sulke gruweldade soos die ander, regerings vermoor en vermors op grootskaal, in die huwelik word geweld toegesmeer. Rasioneel kan ek nie jou punt verstaan nie, maar op ‘n emosionele vlak kan ek verstaan dat jy van jou superieure kennis en frustrasie wil “wys”.
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Johannie, wat is die definisie van rasioneel?
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Jy het dit genoem (rasioneel) om ‘n argument te maak, dan kan jy verduidelik wat dit vir jou na wys , wat is “Rasioneel”, soos jou “on/bo-natuurlik” waaraan jy nie “glo” nie, dit kan jy ook verduidelik as jy kan en dan sommer ook wat is die “geskoei op stewige fondasie” wat is dit?
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…En dit is jou antwoord? Baie rasionaal Johannie. Bliksem, jy is ‘n lawwe kalant!
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Not all religious people are evil, but a lot of evil people hide behind religion in a far more cynical way than governments, capitalists or socialists. What’s more, you get far more stupid people believing in the God myth than successful capitalists, so you get these evil, left hand side of the Wechsler scale people attempting to force their craven ideas onto right hand Wechsler scale science advocates. It’s tyranny of the weak which Darwin had an answer for, but we must be kind to the poor in spirit; they will always be with us.
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Tweedens: as ek vra wat is gravitasie, wat doen julle . . . julle gee ‘n formule van Newton of Einstein en almal tussenin, m.a.w. julle gebruik woorde wat wys na ‘n verskynsel wat waargeneem kan word en wat ‘n effek op die materie om ons het en om dit uit te “figure” (wat gravitasie is), gebuik julle gedagtegange wat beskryf word as logies en rasioneel en inteligent ens.
Die “geestelike” werklikheid bestaan op ‘n vlak waar ander gedagtegange gebruik moet word. Eerstens is daar die krag wat “glo” genoem word, “glo” is bokant “rede”, m.a.w. “glo” omvat “rede’. Mens moet eers aan “rede” glo voor dit “graviteer” in jou psige.
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Johann, laat ek weer probeer. Die wetenskap beskryf die Natuur. Die taal waarin die wetenskap praat is wiskunde. Iemand wat ‘n idee het hoe ‘n sekere natuurverskynsel werk, formuleer dit wiskundig. Hierdie postulaat word getoets deur waarneming – data word versamel en getoets aan die postulaat. As die postulaat die natuurverskynsel korrek beskryf, word dit ‘n teorie genoem. Sulke teorieë word suksesvol gebruik om ‘n man op die Maan te sit, jou TV, CD speler en GPS te laat werk, en nog baie meer. Hierdie is konkrete werklikhede, of jy daarmee saamstem of nie. As jy nie die formules verstaan nie, is dit nie die wetenskap se skuld nie – die wetenskap stap aan en jy bly agter.
Hierdie is die” wetenskaplike werklikhede” en enigiemand wat die naturrverskynsels aan die terieë toets, sal (binne eksperimentele foute) dieselfde antwoorde kry.
Jou “geestelike werklikhede” bestaan net in jou kop. As dit aan impiriese data getoets word faal dit keer op keer. Geen data gee herhaaldelik dieselfde antwoorde nie. Jou “krag” wat jy “glo” noem beteken net iets in jou kop wat jyself opmaak. Hoekom kan julle godbots dan nie mense gesond bid nie? Hoekom kan jy nie jou god vir ons wys nie? Die antwoord is maklik: Hierdie “kragte” en “werklikhede” van jou speel net deuntjies in jou kop en is so ver van die waarheid verwyder dat niemand julle ernstig opneem nie.
Hierdie “geestelike werklikhede” en “krag” in “glo” is vir elke person verskillend, en verskil hemelsbreed van die wetenskap, m.a.w. van die Natuur.
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Die “wetenskap werklikhede” maak sin op ‘n rasionele en logiese vlak, al wat ek vra is dat ons bietjie verder beweeg, dis naais as mens ‘n tv het, maar, mar een of ander sakker moet na die beelde sit en kyk wat daarop flikker – wat het dit met wetenskap te doen?
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I think what Johann is trying to say is that the quality of tv programs diminishes the closer you get to Christmas. While this is undeniably true, it does not mean that the argument for television is hopeless for the rest of the year.
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Ai Savage, jy het dit so pragtig uiteengesit. ‘N duidelike, kousale en rasionele verduideliking.
En dan kom Johannie se “antwoord” – ‘n sinnelose gebrabbel. Ek dink nie hy doen enigsins moeite om iets sinvols hier te pos nie. Hy behoort skaam te wees vir die loutere twak wat hy as “argument” wil opdis. Dit sou snaaks wees as dit nie so hartseer was nie.
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Dit moet seker vreeslik pynlik wees vir mense wat saam met hom in ‘n vergadering moet sit.
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Can you imagine what it must have been like going to the same school, even worse, being in the same classroom with Johann? “Meneer/mejuffrou, McBrolloks/Savage/Malherbe/Molly/wie-ook-al het alweer …. sanik sanik sanik.”
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Dankie, Malherbe, dat jy Johannie se antwoord ontrafel het; ek het dae lank probeer en kon nie, Daar is baie soos hy McBrolloks, dis hoekom ek maar baie min vergaderings bywoon.
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Nee Savage, jy gee my hopeloos te veel krediet. Geen mens kan Johannie se jakkalsdraaie ontrafel nie. Hy maak steeds die fundamentele fout deur vrae te stel in die hoop dat ons dit nie kan beantwoord nie. (Soos ek al male sonder tal genoem het – indien ek nie gravitasie kan verklaar nie, wat bewys dit? Dat daar gode is?)
Tweedens beskik Johannie nie oor die basiese vermoe tot redevoering nie. Hy vertel jou nie waar jou argument platval of waar hy nie saamstem nie. Nee, hy gooi nuwe vrae vorentoe en vergeet heel gerieflik die antwoorde vooraf verskaf.
Die vraag wat by my opkom is of Johannie ooit sy eie poste deurlees alvorens hy pos. Sekerlik moet hy skaam voel wanneer hy sy geskrifte vergelyk met ander bydraes op hierdie website? In hierdie opsig verwonder ek my aan sy kinderlike naiwiteit. Die ou kan skynbaar nie insien dat hy sy naam dubbel en dwars met ‘n teerpaal slaan nie.
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Savage, ek sal weer probeer. Jy is seker op koers met die “wetenskap beskryf verskynsels in die natuur”, dis hoekom “hulle” (Julle?) so hard probeer om verskynsels te beskryf en dan te manipuleer, soos bv. TYD.
Dan is die mens ook ‘n verskynsel . . (of nie?). En dit maak seker nie saak hoe klein en “insignificant” ons is nie, dis al wat ons ken, en dis ons wat betekenis gee aan die heelal, die lewe en alles, al is dit net in ons koppe. Net soos ons nie “sonlig” kan sien nie, maar ‘n defleksie daarvan, so ervaar ons ook die “lewe” as ‘n refleksie van die wat om ons aangaan of wat ons waarneem.
Die filosowe en kenners van die siel probeer al vir lank om die verskynsel van die mens te beskryf, en jy “glo” dat hulle in die duister rondtas, maar daar is al baie “grond” gedek met elke ou wat bietjie verder gaan as die wat voor hom/haar gekom het.Tog bly die “lewe” ‘n raaisel.
As jy wil “glo” dat die mens net ‘n biologiese masjien is – is dit jou vrye wil om dit te doen as jy wil “glo” aan die “bewys teorieë” is dit ook jou vrye wil. Wat wil jy of die wetenskaplikes nou eintlik bereik met al die moeisame en “tedious” “fly fucking” van die materie? Dat al die ander verkeerd is? Dat julle die “boom van lewe” ondek het, dat julle die dom gene uit die mens dom gaan uit broei? Dat julle die “super” ras wat aan die wetenskap “glo” gaan voortplant?
As jou biologiese masjien “seize” dan is jy net weer soos jy was voor jy gebore is, wat sê die wetenskaplikes, waar het jy vandaan gekom en waarheen gaan jy?.
Daai joodse hippie het ook ‘n paar oomblike gehad . . .”You think you’re the one that can do what’s never been done. . , meanwhile life goes on all around you”. ( net soos al die ander groot geldmakers suggereer hy ook dat daar iets is wat ons nie weet nie, maar hulle weet, want die geld rol in. . .?)
Nou vra ek wat is jou kompas, waarheen mik jy, hoop jy en julle om nou Nirvana te skep Wat is julle “big deal”?
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You’ve really got it in for Jews. Not all Jews are rich, but a lot of them make fine jewellers and craftsmen, the result of not having been allowed to own fixed property for centuries as a result of Christian persecution. I am gradually replenishing my jewellery collection with Israeli designed adornments. A lot of skill for very reasonable prices. You can’t compare the Chinese with Jews. The Chinese copycat everyone else’s designs with cheap rubbish. Not so the Jewish designer. Israel is tops in the world for IT. And what of it if some Jews are wealthy? You have a problem with people who earn money with honest effort and labour instead of sitting around waiting for miracles, for the skies to open and drop manna on the “believers”. Believers who sit on their arses all day and attempt nothing because they have made the “geloofsprong”.
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“.. dis hoekom “hulle” (Julle?) so hard probeer om verskynsels te beskryf en dan te manipuleer, soos bv. TYD.”
Waar word tyd enigsins gemanipuleer? Kom met voorbeelde want jy praat twak.
“As jy wil “glo” dat die mens net ‘n biologiese masjien is – is dit jou vrye wil om dit te doen as jy wil “glo” aan die “bewys teorieë” is dit ook jou vrye wil.”
Dis nie ‘n kwessie van wil “glo” nie, die bewyse is daar. Kom met jou teen-bewyse. Jy kan nie want jy het dit nie – praat weer twak.
“..wat sê die wetenskaplikes, waar het jy vandaan gekom en waarheen gaan jy?”
Ons kom van ‘n bevrugte eier en gaan terug as atome; C,O,N,P,Fe,Mg,Mn,… ens.
“Nou vra ek wat is jou kompas, waarheen mik jy, hoop jy en julle om nou Nirvana te skep Wat is julle “big deal”?”
Die big deal is dat ek die lewe geniet vir wat dit is en ek glo nie aanjulle lewe na die dood nie. Daar is geen lewe nie. Life is for the living. DBS se lewens-filosofie.
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Impossible for a superstitious person to believe that the whole religious racket was invented to keep the more unruly elements in order for fear of everlasting damnation.
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Molly “Impossible for a superstitious person to believe” wrong! I can see how money makes the world go round, last week one of Mallie’s brothers were buried, since 1963 he “worked” for 4 years, and quickly build up a dynasty with children (even hough he was was not much of a sperm donor), grandchildren and American connections, uplifting the “poor” to become super rich, and I have to ask myself what was he “used” for and by whom? I don’t think it was a church group then who, maybe you know?
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How dare you come up with vicious lies about one of the bloggers here, Johann. I saw your comment before it was deleted. Anyone who blogs or posts here does so on the understanding that they remain anonymous. But no, Johann wants to go on a witch hunt.
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Oh, I see the comment was not deleted. So what if one of Malherbe’s brothers died of ripe old age recently. If you don’t watch out we’ll hold a seance and send his ghost to haunt you, seeing that you believe in spoke.
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Ok I see your point, if you did’nt know that Mallie is a “kafirboetie” then it could be a bit crude, sorry I did’nt mean it like that. My point being that money talks and are used to make people “toe the line”, the same as religiuos “rackets”.
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Johann, you remind me of the white trash that hangs around white tannies’ houses looking for a job, kan jy nie help nie tannie, kry vir my jammer tannie, and then you do a shit job, rob me blind and spend two weeks in prison before you are let out on parole and finally plead guilty to theft in court and get away on a suspended sentence because the jails are already full and you are too much of a corrupting influence on people who genuinely steal out of need, not to feed their drug habit. And then you have the fucking nerve to act as if you are better than blacks because you have a dirty white skin.
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Johann, jy hou nie van die swart mense nie. Het jou gotte hulle ook geskape? Help my asb. dit ook verstaan.
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Johann doesn’t like women very much either, they must stay in the kitchen or flat on their backs, missionary position. God is a pale male.
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Ja Molly, Jy kan die mooiste dinge uit jou onderbewussyn uithaal, wonder watse “jewels” het jy nog daar versteek. En jy het so ‘n “excitable” persoonlikheid, wat natuurlik ‘n goeie ding is, maar nie in die kombuis nie.
Mallies’hulle is nie bang vir die “dood” nie, hulle verafsku mense wat hul vrees vir die “dood” probeer verdoesel deur volgens sy konsep aan “spoke” te glo, so “dood” is ‘n “walk in the park”, om te gaan pee, voorplanting te simuleer, dit maak hulle nie bang nie, hulle roem daarop dat hulle vreesloos lewe.
En Mad Mac ek haat nie mense nie, ek probeer net “gatkruiperery” uitwys, en wat is haat inelkgeval, jy sal seker weet, want uit dit wat jy skryf kom die “gees” agter jou woorde aan vol van haat en nyd en boosgeid. Ek kry die indruk dat jy op haat “thrive”, is daar nog enige liefde in jou oor?
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“Mallies’ hulle is nie bang vir die “dood” nie, hulle verafsku mense wat hul vrees vir die “dood” probeer verdoesel deur volgens sy konsep aan “spoke” te glo, so “dood” is ‘n “walk in the park””. Exactly! People who are afraid of life are afraid of death and vice versa! That’s the whole point we are trying to explain to you, over and over again. Your man-made religions tell you: “Is your life lousy, are you not doing very well, are you an under achiever, or were you dealt a really rough bunch of cards? Never mind, it will all be fine in the afterlife because God loves you so much, so very very much, that if your life sucks, and it’s your own damn fault OR God doesn’t love you enough in This life, to make good things happen for you in This life, then moenie worrie nie, alles sal salig wees saam met God in die ewige nalewe.” And you believe this? You honestly, really, fall for it?
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“come up with vicious lies” if death is a walk in the park, why so vicious?
“Is your life lousy,” Maybe we get up in the morning in a world of make-believe that everything is fine, life is fine, I’m fine, having a job is fine, surviving life is fine, and fine is fine enough.
What I’ve been trying to tell you over and over and over again is “Your concept of God is the “dogma” indoctrination that you received from observing and building up your ego from childhood, it’s the mask you wear, it’s not who you are, it’s only a part of you, and all you do is reconfirm your indoctrination by looking at how “wrong” the religious people are, and you trying to push it al little further every time.
I see your point. . .ok . . .can we move on already? Where would we go?
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I have never suffered under the illusion that everything is “fine”. Adriaan is not in a happy place. I don’t know how anyone can be quite so wretched. What can you say to such a person? I know a Methodist minister who suffers excruciating headaches and has had several operations done on his brain. His head is covered in scars. He wanted the last incision to be done in the shape of a crucifix but the surgeon refused. I don’t know why such terrible things happen to people but I am not convinced there is a God behind it. I can understand why it would give people a feeling of consolation that there is a God who understands.
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In any case you are taking my words out of context Johann. I didn’t click immediately that you were talking about Mandela’s funeral. I thought you might know Malherbe or who he is. If anyone needs to make a geloofsprong it is you, Johann. Black people standing in the queue at Shoprite on the day before Christmas behave just like white people, only difference is that they are a bit more polite.
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Johannie sallieverstanie Savage. Hy wil (weereens) sy behoefte tot “iets groters” aanvoer as rede vir ons bestaan. Behoefte tot iets bewys niks.
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Ja-nee, Malherbe, as jy die god meme onderlede het, is jou optrede alles behalwe rasioneel.
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Tyd te reis, ek het dan op die vierkantige skerm gesien dat daarmee ge-eksperimenteer word en as die saaintis geweet het wat die “formule” van TYD is sou ons al voordeel daaruit gehad het, ek het nie bedoel dat daar iets mee “verkeerd” is nie. Dis die blinde geloof dat die wetenskap alles kan verklaar wat ‘n mens aan bande lê en verwaandheid “binne” die mens se psige veroorsaak..
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” kwessie van wil “glo” nie, die bewyse is daar” so is die bewyse ook van hoe bewussyn, verbeelding en skepenende gedagtes veroorsaak word deur materie wat rondskuif in ons koppe. Die meeste verbruikers items was eers geskep deur verbeelding en “glo” voor dit gerealiseer het.
Sjym dit klink ook of jy nie ‘n keuse gehad nie, die getuienis is net te oorweldegend, ons is vasgevang in hierdie biologiese masjien en as daar nou bv. hoë bloedruk gediagnoseer word is dit ‘n defek in jou masjien, dit het niks met jou te doen nie – die masjien sal jou dwing om pille te drink, of nee die masjien sal sommer self die pille drink, jy is net ‘n getuie van wat om jou gebeur. ‘n Eksistensialisme se droom.
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I don’t quite know what you mean by your example of high blood pressure, Johann. If you don’t take medication for high blood pressure you are at risk of damaging your arteries, having a stroke or suffering an aneurysm. Of course, you can choose not to take medication and die an early death.
Our natural (= innate, inborn) tendency is to look for pattern and meaning in everything around us. When we see patterns we cannot explain, we look for explanations. If none is to be found, we conclude it must be supernatural, and we draw the wrong conclusion.
The most famous example of all is probably the phenomenon of witch-burnings of the seventeenth century. In the town of Salem, any behaviour or action by a woman that diverged from the norm in the slightest was deemed paranormal or, rather, witchcraft and the perpetrator faced being burned at the stake.
Believing that a woman who lives with cats, dogs and owls is capable of concocting evil spells that inflict misery on others is no more preposterous than believing in a “God” that punishes people for not taking the unseen “God” seriously.
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FYI, no “witches” were ever burned in Salem. But they did hang 19 people, tortured one to death trying to get a “confession” out of him, and at least 5 others died in dyer conditions in prison. Rumors have it they even killed a dog for the crime of witchcraft.
The whole thing was starting to spiral out of control, with people accusing others they had vendettas with, and of course, people with property and money fled for their lives, but their lands were seized anyway. It turned into one big shit show pretty quickly. The local sheriff took advantage of this by arresting some of the pretty girls and women whom he personally stripped naked to inspect their bodies to find the marks of the devil, and one can only guys what else that pig got up to.
Then one day, the governor’s wife got accused of witchcraft. He stepped in right away, and banned spectral evidence from courtrooms, so that took the “geloofspronge” out of the hands of the prosecutors. The whole thing fizzled out fast and the hysteria came to an end.
This is nothing compared to what happened in Europe when the religious Johanne used their geloofspronge to burn and torture just about anyone they had a problem with. By the time the dust had settled, they had brutally murdered, by some estimates, over a 100 000 people. And of course seized all their lands and property too 🙂 ! It turns out it was quite lucrative business for the people who orchestrated this. And all you needed was one accusation and one little geloofsprongetjie.
Watch out for anyone who tells you all you need is a geloofsprong. Just look at the shit storm that has caused in the past.
Waar is jou spook Johann?
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Pardon me, Mac. I got the part about witch burnings in Salem from Arthur Goldstuck’s “The Ghost that Closed Down the Town”, an anthology of urban legends that give rise to ghost stories. Shows how you should second check everything you read. Goldstuck is more famous for writing about tech gadgets. Apart from that gaffe about Salem, Goldstuck is worth reading for debunking superstition.
Thanks for filling me in with what really happened at Salem. Killing a dog for suspected witchcraft … just like my neighbour who poisoned the previous owner of my place’s cat. Previous owner was slightly into new age, but her real crime was to be a woman over a certain age living on her own. I obey only one law and I make it clear to anyone I have dealings with, “I do unto others as they do unto me.”
Coming back to witch hunts, the Protestants were the worst of the lot during the Reformation. The Catholics have historically warned against over zealousness and in earlier days and for the most part scoffed at witchcraft and ghosts as being superstitious nonsense. But now the Catholic priest next door believes in Satanic possession, he says he has seen it himself. An educated man, still believing in ghoulies and ghosts. He must be bored. But to borrow a phrase: the devil finds work for bored minds.
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No worries holy, it is a very common mistake regarding Salem.
The future of the Roman Catholic Church lies in the under developed world and the developing world. In these parts of the world, superstition is strong, and to reinforce their “saving grace and power”, they have to appear to be on the front lines of fighting demons and evil spirits that posses’ people and animals.
This is pretty evident in electing a new Pope from South America, and the inclusion of priests all over North America who are “specialists” in dealing with possession. The Vatican has ramped up resources and PR to make people believe that they absolutely need the Roman Catholic Church to save them from this looming threat of pure and total evil.
This is quite a desperate move to keep their numbers up. But after their child rape on a cult level has come to light in the developed world, and how they protected and enabled their pedophile employees and shamed the victims for decades with the most expensive lawyers money can buy, they have lost hundreds of thousands of followers, and the pews have all but dried up with young people and young families that attend services on Sundays.
To sum it all up, the latest cool-aid of the Roman Catholic Church is demon possessions. It is a desperate play, and all their employees are forced to drink it, and then spread the word. But in the parts of the world where rational thinking is all but none existent, it seems to work well.
It is also my opinion, that it is not long, before the dominoes start to fall in South America and Central America regarding the consistent rape of children by priests and church employees as well as how these criminals were protected and enabled by the highest levels of the church and government law enforcement agencies. Anyone who believes that it only happened in the developed world everywhere the Roman Catholic Church was operating, is as delusional as it gets. So brace yourselves, for the truth will come out, like it always does with crimes against humanity, especially if it was orchestrated by such a powerful and rich organization who tells everyone daily that they hold the moral high ground on just about everything in the world.
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As the new pope is a Franciscan, some people are asking why the RC is not taking a vow of poverty itself. The RC is arguing back that poverty isn’t all that great and that possessions are a cool thing.
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Hoekom is jy dan so bang om die geloofsprongetjie te maak Mad Mac. Is jy bang jy gaan begin om hekse uit te snuffel? Jy gaan nie jou”self” verloor nie en dan kan jy mos saampraat (was daar het dit gedoen). Dis waar God is, so naby.
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Johann, soos DBS dit stel, jou gellofsprongetjie is niks behalwe die volgende:
“Religion: a wretched excursion into a world of illusion and ignorance. (DBS)”
Die wereld wat ontblood word deur jou geloofsprongetjie is iets waarmee ek niks mee te doen wil he nie. Om omring te word deur ‘n klomp ape soos jy en jou broeders sal sekerlik vir my martelind wees.
Die naaste wat ek aan hel of ‘n nagmerrie kan kom is om na een van daardie mighty ignorant men konverasies heen te gaan waar julle klomp almal vir julle spoke staan en juig terwyl julle cult leier vir julle vertel dat die duiwel vir julle sit en wag, en die enigste manier om hom af te weer is om julle hartjies vir julle gunsteling spook, jesus te gee. En dan ook nog in dieselfde asem vir julle vertel julle mag julle vrouens onderdruk.
Ons arme ou volkie is so besmet met julle geloof in spoke dat baie mense nie reguit meer kan dink nie. Mense soos jy bv.
Ek wonder wat Darwin se eerlike opinie was as hy so gekyk het na mense soos julle. Breine wat besmet is met ‘n virus wat julle dommer en dommer maak by die dag. Die neorose wat vandag deur top kliniese sielkundiges herken word in mediese vlakke. Self die wetenskaplikes stem saam dat julle siek is in julle koppe.
Dit traak julle egter nie veel nie. Julle fok lekker voort en doen dieselfde kwaad aan julle kinders aan. Die sieklus word oor en oor herhaal.
Dan kyk mens na die wereld se gekiendenis, en al die bloed van miljoene mense wat julle gestort het in die naam van julle spoke. Alles oor ‘n geloofsprongetjie. Nee dankie Johann, ek spring eerder van ‘n baie hoe brug af as wat ek jou geloofsprongetjie maak.
Geniet die donker!
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En dis hoekom jy so bang is om die geloofsprongetjie te maak, jy is tog so bang om soos een van “hulle” te word, en vir jou nog erger, jy is sooo bang ander mense gaan dink jy is een van “hulle” – kan jy jou die skande en vernedering indink? Ek weet hoe die voel want ek was al daar, maar ek weet dat jy nie sal kan stil bly nie, ten spyt mense soos jy wat altyd neerhalende aanmerkings maak en “bewyse” soek op ‘n rasionele vlak. Sal jy verras wees deur die vreugde en die woord vryheid wat ‘n ander betekenis kry.
Ek verseker jou dis iets wat jy nog altyd wou doen, so moenie bang wees nie, Mad Mac, kry dit agter die rug, tjiekensjt.
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It is one thing that human nature is prone to these perversions and another matter altogether that these perversions are covered up by the Catholic church. The dirty old man waving a packet of sweets on a street corner is the same as any of these old perverts, but society may not say so?
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What also gets me, is for those ignorant bastards who runs the Roman Catholic Church, to say to the victims, that they will help them through their ordeal. After they battled their accusations and claims with the best and most expensive lawyers money can buy.
That is exactly the same as telling a rape victim that the rapist will make them feel better if they just gave him another chance.
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Exactly Mac.
Another question is why the godiots are so quiet when these atrocities are comitted. Why the silence? Would they be as quiet when someone of another religion commits similar crimes; or low and behold, if an atheist commited them? We all know the answer….
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I had naively believed that the Franciscans, with their love of nature and animals, would be less inclined to molest children, considering how we humans are animals too. But they’re just more into fondling genitals and sticking their fingers up boys’ arses.
Franciscan accused of sex crimes at JFK commits suicide
Sun, January 27, 2013
By ED RUNYAN
Mike Munno of Cortland said he knew there would be some strange days ahead when he and a fellow Warren John F. Kennedy High School graduate discussed the sex crimes they say Franciscan brother Stephen Baker committed against them in high school, but Brother Baker’s death isn’t the outcome he wanted or expected.
“I don’t think it’s the closure we expected. I would have not thought it would have gone to this extreme,” Munno said Saturday after police near Hollidaysburg, Pa., were called to Baker’s room at St. Bernardine Monastery in Newry, Pa. after another resident found Baker not breathing.
“No matter what it is, you don’t wish death on anybody,” Munno said.
Blair Township police were called to the monastery after a resident found Baker’s body at 7:35 a.m. An autopsy indicated he died from a self-inflicted knife wound just before being found, and his death was ruled a suicide.
Blair Township Police Chief Roger White declined to say whether Baker, 62, left a note.
Newry is about 90 miles east of Pittsburgh.
“Let us continue to pray for all victims of abuse, for Brother Baker’s family and the repose of his soul,” Bishop George V. Murry of the Youngstown Diocese said in a statement.
Father Patrick Quinn, ministry provincial for Baker’s religious order of friars, Franciscan Third Order Regular, said of Baker in a statement Saturday, “We express our regret and prayers to his family, and especially to all who have been impacted by this tragic situation.”
Munno and another man met with the news media Jan. 16 to allege that the Youngstown Diocese and Franciscans settled out of court with them and nine other male JFK student athletes because Baker sexually abused them from 1986 to 1990 at the school and in other locations.
Baker was athletic trainer, baseball coach and teacher at the school from 1986 to 1992. While giving massages in a small, closed training room at the school, he would massage the boys’ genitals and digitally penetrate them, the men, a spokesman and their attorney said.
Each of the 11 purported victims received an “upper five-figure” financial settlement last October after mediation sessions with the school, diocese and religious order, their attorney, Mitchell Garabedian of Boston, said.
Several days after Munno and his former classmate discussed their allegations, Munno and Robert M. Hoatson, co-founder and president of the Livingston, N.J.-based Road to Recovery Inc. support group, went to Johnstown, Pa., and discussed the allegations at Bishop McCort High School.
Baker also worked as an athletic trainer and teacher at that Catholic school in the late 1990s.
In the days to follow, additional alleged victims of Baker from Warren JFK and Bishop McCort contacted Garabedian and several other attorneys to report abuse, according to The Tribune-Democrat newspaper of Johnston, Pa.
By one account, the number of people coming forward as of Friday was 50.
“It has pretty much been a whirlwind in kind of a good way, in kind of a not-so-good way, kind of complex,” Munno said of the news of the allegations, the additional people coming forward and now Baker’s suicide. “It’s been a crazy week and a half.”
Munno said he envisioned people coming forward after he and the other man told their story, but he didn’t expect so many.
One person who did not come forward was Baker himself, Munno said.
As for whether a comment from Baker would have helped bring closure for the purported victms, Munno said it probably would not have unless Baker had admitted guilt, but he doubts Baker would have done that because he believes Baker was facing possible prosecution.
Charges could have resulted from crimes allegedly committed against one of the 11 men from the Warren JFK settlement and many alleged victims from Johnstown, Munno said.
The statute of limitations had run out for 10 of the 11 men from Warren JFK, but it had not expired under Pennsylvania law, Munno said.
On Thursday, Mahoning County Prosecutor Paul Gains encouraged any victims of Baker to contact the police agency within the jurisdiction where any possible illegal act occurred so that an investigation could be conducted.
Warren police said Friday no one had contacted them to report anything, and Munno said he hadn’t been told of anyone who was planning to report the matter to police.
Munno not only played sports at JFK from 1986 to 1990, but he also served as an assistant football coach at JFK for five years starting with the 1991-1992 school year, the last year Baker worked at the school.
Munno said Baker’s role with athletes was diminished during Baker’s last year at the school, which also was the first year under Coach Tony Napolet. During that year, the school started working with “a more professional trainer,” Munno said.
“I was kind of standoffish,” Munno said of his relationship with Baker during that final year.
Hoatson, in a statement after learning of Baker’s death, reaffirmed his group’s support for “the courageous survivors of sexual abuse by Brother Stephen P. Baker despite his unfortunate death today.
“Victim/survivors have stepped forward in significant numbers to bravely report that they were harmed as children and would like to heal. That healing will continue despite the news that has come out of Pennsylvania today.”
Hoatson added: “The passing of Brother Stephen P. Baker is in no way the fault of any of the courageous men and women who have contacted advocacy agencies, attorneys, or law enforcement agencies. Their pursuit of justice and truth must continue so they can heal and recover from the horrific ordeals experienced in childhood.
“Condolences are sent to the family and community members of Brother Stephen P. Baker who are left to mourn his death,” Hoatson said.
Judy Jones of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests issued a statement about Baker’s death, saying, “We feel sad for Brother Baker’s family but even sadder for the dozens of boys who Baker assaulted. His passing changes little, however. It’s still crucial that anyone who saw, suspected or suffered his crimes comes forward.
“Kids are safest when clergy sex crimes and cover-ups are exposed, and that’s still what needs to happen here,” she said.
Bishop Murry said last week the diocese was first alerted about the Brother Baker case in 2009 when the victims’ attorney sent a letter requesting information about the students’ transcripts and indicated there was “a possibility of an abuse claim.”
The diocese has said Baker was never a member of the clergy of the Diocese of Youngstown, and the diocese had no legal liability in the matter.
Bishop Murry added that the diocese found no records indicating any sex allegations against Baker.
.vindy.comwww/news/2013/jan/27/franciscan-brother-baker-accused-sex-crimes-jfk-pa/
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God! Jou moerse asshole!!!!! As jy bestaan laat weet van jouself! Ek dink nie jy het internet access nie. Almal haat jou!!! Kom uit jou fucking coward bastard!!!!! Of kom loop in my skoene. Dit sal jou tydjie aan die kruis na ‘n Sondag skool piekniek laat lyk. Jy het nie die guts nie!!!!!! Die balls!!!!! Wys vir ons hoe ‘n regverdige, loving, almighty god funksioneer. Iets wat jy nooit sal wees nie!!!! Jou skepping beheer jou, nie jy jou skepping nie. Jou witbroodjies glo almal die religious bullshit. Ek nie!!!! Ek het jou ware nasty karakter gesien. Jy kan so almagtig wees soos jy wil, jy kan my nie jou maak like nie!!!! Ek fokken haat jou!!!. Jy is dood vir my!!!!! Jy kon net sowel nie bestaan het nie. Indien jy betsaan is jy net vader vir ‘n groep yuppies.
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Vertel my waar is jou pyn? Waar het jy seer Adriaan, is dit fisies of net in jou kop?
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Ek is bitter, bitter, bitter teleurgesteld in hoe verskriklik hierdie lewe is. Ek is 31 en werkloos. Ek was besig om deeltyds te studeer vir ‘n graad in sielkunde.Ek het dit nou opgefok ( Soos gewoonlik, soos alles in my lewe) !!!!!! Ek het probeer leer maar ek kan glad nie konsentreer nie!!! Ek het OCD en dit maak my mal! Elke dag van my lewe loop ek rond met haat wat geen mens nog ooit ervaar het nie, nog nooit nie!!!!!!!! Ek is tot die dood toe gefrustreer!!!!! Dit maak nie saak hoe hard ek probeer om iets reg te kry nie, ek misluk. Dit is letterlik soos een van daai nagmerries waar jy probeer hardloop maar jy kan nie beweeg nie. Of jy skree, maar daar kom niks uit nie. Ek is totaal en al ‘n underachiever wat oorgelaat is aan myself.Ek haat myself!!!!!!
Vir my is die hele issue dat mense onophoudelik aangaan oor hoe wonderlik hierdie sogenaamde god is maar elke dag vir my is ‘n absolute hel. As daar ‘n hel is moet dit so wees, miskien net ‘n bietjie minder erg en lelik. So mense bekeer julle, want as julle my lewe moet he belowe ek julle dat julle meer as berou gaan he! Dit is verskriklik!!!!! Dit is soos om jou hand in ‘n pot kookwater te druk en dit daar te hou. Dit is nie iets wat jy sommer net verdra of mee vrede maak nie!!! Trust my!
Ek was al by by 3 verskillende psigiaters, nog 3 verskillendes vir ‘n tweede opinnie. Ek is al vir die afgelope 6 jaar by ‘n sielkundige. Niks werk nie!!!!!! Dit gaan aanhou gaan met my soos dit gaan tot die dag laat ek doodgaan, letterlik tot op die sekonde. Die rede hoekom dit gaan soos dit gaan is oordat die lewe teen my is, so maklik soos dit. Mense hou aan en aan om te se dat dit net ‘n neorologiese probleem is, maar dit is nie!!!! Ek was op skool die grootste loser wat ooit bestaan het. ‘n Fokkop!!!! Ek kon letterlik met niks presteer nie.
Die res van die wereld het dit defnitief maklikker as ek, met miskien die uitsondering van die krepeles in Indie se agterstrate. Ook godverlate!!!!!!!
In 2002 het ek met nuwe medikasie begin wat my verskriklik sleg laat voel het. Ek onthou nog hoe ek sit en bid en smeek het dat god asseblief my lewe sal laat eindig, ek het verskriklik gehuil. Ek het letterlik gekrul en gesmeek. My kak lewe het net so aangehou. In 2003 het ek probeer om myself te vergas, ek het die here gesmeek om my asseblief te help om suksesvol te wees, ek het weereens sit en huil. Ek het kop uitgetrek. ek was bang ek sal ‘n vegetable uitdraai. Ek was op die verge om die sleutel te draai. Ek het klaar die tuinslang gesny alles, in die exhaust gedruk en die venster opgedraai om die tuinslang in plek te hou.
Ek het myself baie gesny. In 2002 en 2005 veral. Die merke sit nogsteeds aan my polse. In 2008 het ek myself weer probeer vergas, selfde storie. Ek het nie eens mag oor my eie bestaan nie. Ek was in 2007 twee keer gehospitaliseer. Hier is geen god in my wereld nie. Ek kan so hard skree soos ek wil, hy kan my nie hoor nie. My enigste redder is die dood. As ek ‘n vuurwapen gehad het, het ek al defnitief myself doodgeskiet. Ek het alhoewel nie ‘n vuurwapen nie, wat nou? Moet ek myself verdrink, sny, weer probeer vergas of probeer hang? Voor ‘n trok inloop, voor ‘n trein inloop? Ek wens ek gaan dood. I hate myself and I want to die!!!!!! As ek nie myself gaan doodmaak nie gaan ek in ‘n malhuis verder suffer waar die taxpayer vir my sal betaal tot die dag dat ek dood is.
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Ek glo ook glad nie in die liefde nie. Ek is 31 en my hele lewe deur single. Ek het nog nie eens so veel as ‘n platoniese verhouding met ‘n vrou gehad nie. Sekere mense sal nooit verlief wees of ervaar hoe dit is om saam met iemand anders te wees nie. Ek dink ek is in elk geval so pateties dat ek outomaties uit die gene poel uit gehaal gaan word. ‘n Baie defnitiewe bewys van evolusie. Ek is ‘n freak.
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En dan dink ek ek het probleme, as al die psigiaters jou nie kan help met hul wetenskaplike pille (Chemieklaieë) nie en jy hierdie kompulsiewe impulse kry wat jy nie kan “beheer” nie, dan kan ek net vir jou sê – ” Ek voel vir jou” en ek weet dit gaan ook nie help nie.
As ek ‘n voorstel kan maak, asb, moenie jou lewe “waste” met gas en snye en sulke pynlike “dood” nie, doen iets ordentlik en avontuurlik, gaan loop in die see in dat jy darem voedsel vir die visse kan wees en nie ‘n gemors agterlaat wat iemand anders moet skoonmaak nie.
Dan het Koos kombuis in sy boek “seks draks en boeremusiek” geskryf van sy ondervinding in die “malhuis”, hy het ook sy probleme gehad, maar kon op ‘n manier dit omdraai tot sy voordeel, gelukkig vir hom het hy ‘n gevoel vir musiek gehad, hy skryf ook van die lekker seks wat hy in die malhuis gehad het, maar hy kan ook lekker lieg na al die alternatiewe bewussyn chemikalieë wat hy gebruik het.
My ander voorstel bly ook nog, vra jou sielkundige wat is die geloofsprong en dan doen jy dit, maar moenie dit “fake” nie, doen dit met ‘n nugtere gemoedstoestand en verwag regte resultate, moenie jou dinge verbeel nie, wie weet miskien kry jy dit reg, probeer net iets – jy is mos vry om te besluit wat jy wil, en jy het nie meer rasionele denke om te verloor nie, nie dat dit jou inelkgeval gaan help nie.
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Ok Johann, ek sal in die see instap en kos wees vir die visse.
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Adriaan sê nou maar net dat as jou liggaam stop om te funksioneer en jy bestaan dan nog, en jy leer dat die taak wat jy op aarde moes verrig het was om deur jou uitdaging te “werk” en omdat jy dit nie voldoende volbring het nie, moet jy weer terugkom aarde toe en dan weer van vooraf begin met dieselfde “uidaging”.
Of soos ek gehoor het van iemand wat aan depressie gely het en toe skiet sy haarself met ‘n pistool teen haar slaap en nou is sy blind ook!
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There is no life after death, this life is the only one you get, take it or leave it. Have you noticed how you never hear from people who attend seances during their lives and swear blind they will communicate from “the other side” when they have died? Don’t call us, we’ll call you,
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“No life after death!” molly is there life before “death” is there life before “birth” What difference would it do to you if you have the freedom to believe what you want, these atheists seems to be trying to put “life the universe and everything” into a little box and then tell you you disappear into nothing. If that’s what you want to believe then have fun!
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Reality can be hard to face, but it’s a hell of a lot better than telling people they will be better off in some fictitious afterlife. “He/she’s gone to a better place.” No, he/she is dead horsemeat! And let’s hope that dead horsemeat doesn’t get into a King’s Pie at an outlet near you!! (For all I know something from the local mortuary was sneaked into the “duck” that made my dog so sick.) “He looks so peaceful” many people said about a certain old man’s corpse. The reason he looked “peaceful” was that rigor mortis had come and gone and the muscles had entirely relaxed. Belief in life after death makes as much sense as looking at the stars and “seeing” bulls and virgins and centaurs and scorpions. It’s all in your mind.
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“Reality can be hard to face” Molly what are you saying? Isn’t that what we have to face every day? Lets do it, lets face reality, where shall we start? It seems that what “reality is not” is what this webpage is all about. “God is an illusion”, everything in my “kop” is delusional, the “past” is gone and out of assistance, the future hasn’t happened yet. Our 5 senses help us to “survive” the material world. We are caught “inside” this biological machine.
Let’s face reality. What is it?
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Ai Johannie, moet Holy dit uitspel? Jy spring weg van realty met jou geloofsprong. Julle outjies kan maar net nie vrede maak met die finaliteit vd dood nie, nou maak julle spronge na selfgeskepte droompies. Slaap saggies Johannie….in jou droomwereld.
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Realiteit is wanneer jy moet gaan kak. Jy kan nie ‘n geloofsprong gebruik om dit te vermy nie. Jy sal jouself bekak en almal om jou sal dit as ‘n realiteit beskou en ervaar.
Jou teorie dat jy net ‘n geloofsprongetjie nodig het is nou hol rug gery.
Savage het dit mooi beskryf. Jy is Carbon.
Die spoke wat jy in glo, nou dit is beslis nie realiteit nie. Dit lewe net in jou kop.
Die kak wat by jou broekpype gaan afloop, dit is realiteit. Dit sal deur almal om jou waargeneem word.
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Miskien verduidelik dit iets vir jou Johannie. Geen geloofsprongetjies nodig nie.
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Daar het julle dit nou, al die komments gaan oor wat realitiet NIE is nie, Ek kan (on)gelukkig nie die video kyk nie, my internet is te stadig, maar as ek vanuit my realiteit kyk dan lees ek van menslike ontlasting, van opinies wat “afpraat” na my toe, of sal ek sê my saaiber bure wat hulself beskou as iemand wat iets weet wat ek nie weet nie, vol van haat en spoeg en dis amper asof julle nie genoeg kry om jul frustrasies op my uit te haal nie, asof julle nie genoeg “harde” woorde kan vind op jul uiterste “disgust” te bewoord nie.
In my realiteit loop daar psigiese ontlasting langs Mad Mac se saaiber bene af wat nie materie is nie, wat my oog nie kan sien nie, maar hier op die saaiber blad – is dit hier – al is dit net in my kop en in julle sin, soos hierdie webblad ook, die “wetenskap” het wel die internet gefasiliteer, maar die woorde wat hier verskyn kom uit ‘n ander plek wat die “rede” niks van weet nie.
Nou lyk dit in my realiteit asof Mad Mac sugureer dat net die materieële die “werklikheid” is, die woorde hier wat na iets wys is nie materie en dan ook nie realiteit nie. Dit bestaan net in my kop, – woorde nie realiteit nie?
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Oh dear, now he’s trying to make a martyr of himself, three guesses in whose image? We don’t hate you, nobody’s spitting on you.
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Ek kry dit nie, waarvan praat jy? Dit maak regtig saak wat julle van my dink, maar wat meer saak maak is die “realiteit”. Dis jy wat daarna verwys het en nou kry ek die indruk jy weet nie wat dit is nie. . . .Wat is “realiteit” Molly?
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Realiteit is wanneer jy voel jy moet toilet toe gaan maar jy verontagsaam wat jou liggaam vir jou se en sit met kak in jou broek. Which sums up the fundie’s attitude: refusal to deal with reality and let someone else clear up the mess they create.
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Jou en Mad Mac se realiteit is ‘n “bewuswording van die drukking” van jou eie ligaamlike “ontlasting”. . . . eeeewh! Ateiste se credo! Ons is weer terug by Beelsebub.
Dis nie ‘n “trick question” nie ( I would think that after all the conscious altering substances used and abused by what nou seems to be all the atheists, you would come up with something beautiful about what “reality” is) You don’t have any problem with throwing the whole Rc church under the bus, but when asked wat do you stand for (and not against) you can only think of dung. . . ?
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Die Xenon speel met die Radon,
en die Argon speel met die Krypton.
Die Neon speel met die Boron,
en die Barium speel met die Radium.
Maar Johannie reken sy geloofsprong,
sal hom losmaak van die Carbon.
Maar gedoem is hy en sal gaan,
soos ons almal maar na die Maan.
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Very funny.
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Ja Savage, hy wil sy behoefte as bewys opdis. Soos al duisend maal aan hom genoem kan 1) behoefte en 2) gebrek aan kennis, nie as bewys dien nie. Al Johannie se stellings berus op een v bg. Ek dink Johannie se eintlike probleem is gebrek aan grysstof – baie maklik vir dom ouens om goete soos geloofspronge toe te pas. Sinoniem vir geloofsprong is selflieg.
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Siende dat niemand oor “realiteit” wil skryf nie, sal ek maar vir die soveelste keer jou weer dieselfde antwoord gee, die onbegrip van bv. “bewussyn” dien nie as bewys dat “bewussyn” nie bestaan nie. So in my realiteit is jou stelling niks werd nie. Jy het genoeg grysstof om dit te verstaan al is dit net in jou “kop”.
En die “realiteit”. . .? – lyk my ons gaan weer dieselfde pad as jou “bo-on-natuurlik” (wat jy nou nog nie ‘n begrip van het nie wat nie bewys dat dit bestaan nie), dis alles sommer net ‘n groot lawaai “much ado about nothing”, natuurlik moet mense se psige besig gehou word en vermaak word geselekteer deur die grote van die brein.
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Johann reminds me of the self proclaimed IT technician who does not know what an overclocking error on a computer motherboard is, let alone know how to correct it, but is horrified that a woman can suss it out. He is like the ageing Casanova who, upon seeing me minding my own business reading The Economist, comes up to me and insists that Huisgenoot is more fitting for my gender. There are only two words to say to the Johanns of this world: Fuck Off.
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Thanks Molly if you don’t know what “reality” is, just say so, no need to be so defensive about it, what or whom are you trying to protect anyway?
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Dit is verstaanbaar dat jy vra wat “realiteit” is siende dat jy ‘n realiteits ontkenner is. Enige godbot wat dink daar bestaan gode, is ‘n realitiets ontkenner. Hy of sy ontken die realiteit van empiriese data oor die Natuur. Hierdie data bevat geen waarnemings oor die bestaan van enige gode nie, so dus is die wetenskap nie ‘n realitiet nie. So, maak maar jou eie definisie op oor wat jou “realiteit” is; die meeste van ons op hierdie blog weet wat die Natuur se realitiet is.
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Couldn’t have said it better myself than this guy:
At the core of each of us is our belief system. It is around that belief system that a large part of our personal identity is formed. One of the real strengths of fundamentalism is that it provides a stable core belief system. To borrow from 80’s new wave and avant-garde band, Talking Heads, “Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.”
It is much easier to believe you understand who you are and to be stable when your core belief system is stable. For folks like liberals and progressives this is a little more difficult because the walls around our core beliefs are a little less rigid and more willing to flex as new information presents itself. Which means that we, more frequently than fundamentalists, are reshaping our understanding of who we are and how we relate to society, even if in small ways.
This just isn’t true for a fundamentalist Christians. The protective walls around their core beliefs are tall and rigid – and with good reason. We have to keep in mind, these core beliefs are so much more than ideas or ideals, they are identification and identity. Who we understand ourselves to be is formed around them. When you challenge a specific belief you are also, in small part, challenging the person’s understanding of who they are.
For fundamentalist Christians, it is even more complicated than just that. In both direct and subtle ways, they believe their salvation, at least in part, is dependent upon being correct on issues of faith.
Intellectualism invites the constant assessment of the “correctness” of a person’s belief system. That’s dangerous ground for a fundamentalist Christian. When you confront them on a particular belief you are not only confronting them on an idea that they have held to more rigidly for a longer time than most other folks but you are confronting the very core of who they understand themselves to be. For them, it is those core beliefs upon which their salvation hangs in the balance, at least in part. Questioning it doesn’t just question the thought but, for them, it puts into question a lifetime of holding on tightly to that thought.
When you take all of that into consideration, it’s really not surprise that most fundamentalist Christians react negatively to or avoid all together any intellectual questioning of their core belief systems. For that matter, it’s not surprising that fundamentalist of all camps tend to have a less than positive reaction to intellectualism. They just want to be right and the rest of us just hope to sort out some small version of the truth. A subtle difference but an important one.
From here: http://www.thegodarticle.com/7/post/2013/10/-why-fundamentalist-christians-fear-intellectualism.html
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. . .”At the core of each of us is our belief system. It is around that belief system that a large part of our personal identity is formed.”. . . Dankie Mollie ek “glo” ook dat “glo” bo “rede” is en dat die ‘believe system” nie so “rigid’ hoef te wees soos die grondboontjie gallery s’n nie
And “freedom” is just that – to be free from any “concept” believe system atheists, Christians, Muslims, etc. These “institutions” facilitate individuals to find their ‘way’, but it’s still up to the individual make choices.
Die “dom bokwagters” het laat weet: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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Bokwagters? I think you mean those sneaky people who break wind in elevators and pretend it wasn’t them.
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Savage, behalwe vir die feit dat Johannie nie die kuns van konstruktiewe debatvoering onder die knie het nie, is hy skynbaar boonop ‘n leke-filisoof. Dit is ‘n gevaarlike kombinasie. Soos iemand voorheen “tonginniekies” opgemerk het: “The first law of philosophy: For every philosophical opinion, there exists an equivalent, but opposite one. The second law of philosophy: They’re both wrong.” Vir iemand soos Johanne wat nog nie een enkele bewys vir sy gotte op die tafel geplaas het nie, is dit darem uiters arrogant om die term “realiteit” so kwistig te gebruik. Of miskien verstaan hy self nie die begrip nie en soek ‘n verduideliking?
Kom Johannie, een enkele bewysie vir jou gotte – en onthou tog asseblief, behoefte en gebrek aan kennis/onbegrip kan nie opgedis word as bewyse nie. Bring vir ons ietsie wat tel as bewys soos ‘n foto, of videoclip, of ‘n haarlok of watookal van jou gotte. Jy weet, wat is daai term nou weer? – o ja, iets realisties…..
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Ek verstaan dat julle “glo” dat al wat bestaan is die materie of “natuur”, en bewussyn is die nagevolg van die funksionering van die “dooie materieële” brein, maar daar is geen klinkklare bewyse daarvoor nie, al wat bewys is is dit wat die saaintis kan bewys en dis al wat ons weet. Ons funksioneer op ‘n manier anders as die rekenaar, die sagte en harde ware van die rekenaar is nie dieselfde ding nie (?), maar volgens julle is dit hoe die menslike brein funksioneer met die verskil natuurlik dat die rekenaar nie ‘n bewussyn het nie.
En die saaintis hou ook ‘n “belofte” in dat hulle gaan “alles” eendag uitvind en dan gaan ons “weet” – die vraag is net wat gaan ons weet?
En nogsteeds het julle die verkeerde konsep van God, julle leef die dualistiese ingesteltheid en is stak in ‘n rat, as jy skryf dat God nie bestaan nie, waarna “wys” die woord “God” vir jou? Jy weet sekerlik nie, want jy het so ‘n vae idee dat daar êrens is ‘n illusie van “iets” wat nie materie is nie. En jy kan nie gaan kyk nie, want jy is gebind deur jou eie waaraan jy waarde heg.
Ek “glo’ weer dat jy ‘n realiteits ontkenner is.
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No, Johann, you are the dualistic thinker here.
Dualism is the position that mental phenomena are, in some respects, non-physical, or that the mind and body are not identical. Thus, dualism postulates that the mind is a non-physical substance, that a spirit exists.
This daft philosophy was originally formulated by Aristotle. Aristotle wanted to believe in reincarnation and guessed that the “spirit” dies with the body. That is a very cynical way of countering any argument that the separate spirit does not actually exist, that it is just a notion. Why does communicating with the dead not work? Oh, they are in limbo right now, their spirits are reincarnated, they are resting in between incarnations.
You have not one shred of proof for this fruitbat philosophy!!!
A horrendous example of this refusal to deal with reality was the very recent case of the four year old girl raped and murdered in Brakpan. Her seven year old sister cheerfully asserted, “She’s in heaven, she’s playing with Jesus, lekka!!” I suppose you can only fantasise about a fictitious afterlife if you are too lazy or stupid to do something proactive about serious social problems in this very real, immediate life, made deadly dangerous by notions of a glorious afterlife and unconditional forgiveness, by a fictitious entity, of unforgiveable crimes against humanity.
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Holy, ek dink nie mens kan iemand wat “geloofspronge” en realiteit in dieselfde sin noem, ernstig opneem nie. In sy droomwereld is bewysbare realiteite en geloofspronge is skynbaar bedmaatjies.
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Janee, Malherbe, dis te wyte aan sy “dooie materieële” brein. Niks tussen die ore wat werk nie.
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Nou wonder julle hoekom ek vra wat woorde vir julle beteken en waarna woorde wys. . . soos;
1. Dualism – to me it means that if you believe or live with this attitude that “there’s a world out there and another world inside me (of which I am the creator)”, you have a dualistic attitude. I’m not talking about yesterday, tomorrow, life after death or before birth etc, I’m referring to where you are “now”, in this moment, if you “believe” here I am and the world exist separate from little old me, that is dualism – indivi”Dualty”. I’ve ask these super intellectuals if they can at least consider what non-dualism would be like, – and it seems that it’s outside of their frame of reference, it appears they have a rigid “believe system” that cant be changed.
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“. . . .if you are too lazy or stupid to do something proactive about serious social problems. . . .” Molly are you suffering from the messiah syndrome, do you want to “save” the world from all misconceptions and bad “spirits”? Or are you an anarchist – destroy everything and start over?
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Vaarwel, tis om ‘t ewe
Die sluwe Seine of Bloubergstrand
Maar vannag word my hare seile
En vaar ek skaam, gesig na onder
Die vlaksee van vergiffenis.
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Of course gaan ek nie in die see instap nie! Ek woon nie naby die see nie. Ek is sarkasties met Johann. Probeer eerder wat Cleopatra gedoen het en laat ‘n slang jou byt. As dit ‘n Inland Taipan is is jy dood binne 10 minute. Ons kry alhoewel nie Taipans in Suid – Afrika nie. Shmoly het Johann se gees in jou in gevaar? Fok dit klink net soos hy.
Nee, ek glo nie aan die liefde nie, maar dit is nie wat my geen hoop gee nie. Ek is teleurgesteld met myself. Ek sien baie ouens saam met hulle meisies maar dit maak my nie meer depressief of jaloers nie. Toe ek ‘n bietjie jonger was was ek baie jaloers. Die liefde is ‘n mite. Vir sekeres is dit wel ‘n realiteit. Nie almal het die voorreg om liefde te ervaar nie. Daar is al baie vir my gese dat ek handsome is, maar ek weet nie wat in vroue se koppe aangaan nie. Ek is te vrot
daarmee. So evolusioner is nie aangepas nie. My gene gaan uitge – Darwin word. Ek sal nooit die voorreg he om iemand lief te he nie en geen vrou sal ooit die voorreg he om my lief te he nie.
Dan glo ek ook nie aan ‘n God soos die gewone gelowiges doen nie. My oupa het altyd gese day God ‘n proses is en nie ‘n entiteit nie. My oupa is oorlede so hy weed nou of dit verkeerd is of nie. Die hele heelal en krag van tyd is goddelik op sy eie. Ek glo nie aan god se liefde nie en ook nie aan liefde self nie. Dit is baie duidelik gebaseerd op my storie dat god nie bestaan nie of totaal en al oninstaat is om persoonlikke verhoudinge met mense te he.
God het oorgenoeg kans gehad om die vrugte van die gees te laat bloei, maar het nagelaat. Daar is so ‘n liedjie ” Tell me all your thoughts on God, I would really like to meet him”.
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Want jy bly nie naby die see nie, hello jy gaan jouself verwoes, jou eie lewe tot ‘n einde bring, wat wharie jy, loop see toe, jy gaan nie op vakansie nie, jy gaan swem en swem en swem. En as Mallies se swart boeties jou beroof en aanval, lag hulle af, want die materieële dinge maak nie meer saak nie, jy’s vry!
Maar is jy nog met ons? Adriaan?
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What a sad, sick piece of garbage you are Johann. And you call yourself a Christian. The more I see of people who call themselves Christians, the more I realise what cruel hypocrites you people are.
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Wel Mollie, ek raak ook bekommerd oor Adriaan, die ou safver vir geen rede nie, en dit is so onnodig. Maar hy is nie “vry” om dinge te verander nie.
And back to “reality”, in my reality what you are doing in the above comment is you express who you are, and that is what “life” does all the time, “life” express itself through us, and what you express depends on where your focus is, and where are yours? You focus ons everything shall we say “down under”, then its not surprising that what “life” express through you is hatred, resentment, frustration, boosgeid, and all the time you try to make yourself feel better about life and it seems the harder you try the worst it gets. Are you caught in this spiral that takes you to this place where it is “confirmed” to you what your “reality” is over and over again?. And you hate it?
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I’m not boos, you doos. Just about everybody who knows me benefits from the experience. A nice lunch, assistance with getting pension benefits, help with quality second hand clothes if yours get stolen off the washing line, assistance with fund raisers for the poor. If there was a Jesus, he would say, holyshmoly, she’s the real goods, this is the salt of the earth I was talking about. You are either a generous person by nature, or you are a mean shit by nature. There’s also the aspect of nurture, how you were brought up, but by the time you are 21 or so, you’re not going to change your nature much. It’s got absolutely nothing to do with sitting in draughty churches listening to fear inducing sermons.
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I’m not boos, you doos
What a sad, sick piece of garbage you ar
cruel hypocrites you people are
Niks tussen die ore wat werk nie.
break wind in elevators and pret
say to the Johanns of this world: Fuck Off.
sit met kak in jou broek.
etc. . .
It’s either a class thing or a double life
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En jy Johannie? Wat gereeld praat van “human ekskrement”. Dink jy omdat jy dit nie kak noem nie, die betekenis verskil? Tipiese skynheilige godioot.
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What does Johann think he will achieve with his hypocrisy and ad hominem attacks? That we will take the geloofsprong and become like him? Green pill or red pill? When you take something personally on the internet then you should not take part in discussion groups, Johann. You are also not at liberty to tell others what to do.
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Jou pillietjies op Johann? Bel die apteek en kry nog.
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Geen pille sal vir hom werk nie. Oor die wal met bal-en-al…
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A lot of fundamentalist Christians suffer from depression and take meds for it. This causes more depression, as it’s not nice to admit to yourself that you need medication to get along. Not severe, unipolar depression which has a genetic basis, but reactive depression that carries on for too long and becomes chronic depression, a state of perpetual dysthymia. The pharmaceutical industry is only too quick to rip people off with “evergreened” versions of Prozac which cost much more than cheap fluoxetine but aren’t really any better. So there you have someone with low self esteem, depressed, being screwed over by the meds industry as well as tithes demanded by the fundie churches. Bending the knee to governments or institutions that only have their own interests at heart is counter evolutionary; you will bend your knees to wind up crouching in caves again. Stand up proud to be a rational hominid.
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Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. I am vast, I contain multitudes.
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Aaaah taste of freedom! Doesn’t it feel better?
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So ‘n tyd terug droom ek ek lewe liewe jesus se tyd. Stap deur Jerusalem en kom op LJ af waar hy kak praat met die Fariseers. Ek vra hom toe of hy die seun v god is. Hy bly eers stil en loer onderlangs of Fariseer-se-kind al pad gevat het. Toe hy seker is hulle is buite hoorafstand seg hy: “Fok nee, my ma het die kak begin toe sy oppiepaal gesit is deur die buurman se seun. Vertel mos toe vir huidjie en meidjie dat dit god is. Teen haar wil nogal.” “Maar dis mos verkragting!”, seg ek. “Presies, maar kan jy glo – daar glo almal haar. Tot my pa. G’n wonder hy het houtwerk op skool gedop nie.” Ek kry die man half jammer. “En nou, wat gaan jy nou doen?” “Nee wat”, kom die bedrukte antwoord “ek het gedog ek kan hier in Jerusalem laag-le, maar die spul wil my nie uitlos nie. Ek kan nie my gat draai nie, dan is hulle op my. Gedog ek sal ‘n prostituut of twee kan naderskraap, maar daarvoor is daar nie tyd nie. Nou wil die mal bliksems my nog kruisig ook. My lewe het begin met oppipaal en lyk my dit gaan so eindig ook. Watdefok is goddelik daaraan?” “Presies”, dog ek in my stilligheid, “wat is goddelik daaraan om jou seun aan ‘n kruis te martel.”
Ek word wakker. 2000 jaar later en mense is steeds mal. Hol agter selfgeskepte gode aan sonder om ‘n enkele vraag te vra.
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